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Author Topic: New Artifact Idea xD  (Read 2624 times)

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Dobq

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New Artifact Idea xD
« on: July 08, 2014, 11:47:50 AM »

Once mentioned in this forum about effect chain hit, that would look like this: gun hits and has a chance to bounce back to the next target (within range calculated from the impacted target) and whether it will be computed by the basic accuracy of this weapon, that is, as if to re fired from hit by an target, I also somewhat model of this weapon:

(it's google translate with small corrects)

[PL]

Kiedyś wspominałem na tym forum o efekcie chain hit, tzn. wyglądałoby to tak: broń trafia i ma szanse na odbicie się do następnego celu (w zasięgu liczonym od uderzonego celu) i to czy trafi byłoby obliczne od podstawowej celności owej broni, czyli tak jakby by ponownie wystrzelony od trafionego celu, mam też niejako model tej broni:

dmg-24
range-90
fire rapid-1
accuracy-77%
chain hit chance-40%
max hits targets (as one shot) (if it's really needed)-4
mass-19
cells use-22

Cost (it's artefact, you need to have project of this weapon):

cryst-23300
gas-10100
cells-19900
time-12:25:30

This weapon looks like pulseguns from robokill, so the guns what this guy get in 'hands':
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Enneagon

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 03:47:59 PM »

Is it energy or ballistic?
From the nature of the gun I assume energy...

As you describe it, it have damage per weight somewhere between Rg1 and Rg2 for the first hit, so it rely heavily on that re-bounce multi-hit to be any good.

From gun like this I would expect less range and bit more damage, but then it becomes just energy version of AMG (well, plus the chance of multi-hit).
Knowing that Rg1 become obsolete very fast, but AMG and even Phantom Rifle have hard time to find any use due to somewhat blurred role they have... this may suffer from that too.

But I like the weight 19 ;)
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Dobq

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2014, 07:25:42 AM »

Is it energy or ballistic?
From the nature of the gun I assume energy...

As you describe it, it have damage per weight somewhere between Rg1 and Rg2 for the first hit, so it rely heavily on that re-bounce multi-hit to be any good.

From gun like this I would expect less range and bit more damage, but then it becomes just energy version of AMG (well, plus the chance of multi-hit).
Knowing that Rg1 become obsolete very fast, but AMG and even Phantom Rifle have hard time to find any use due to somewhat blurred role they have... this may suffer from that too.

But I like the weight 19 ;)

I think it's ballistic (beacuse we have 2 energy artifacts weapons and only 1 ballistic)

I counted this damage and guess it's too small, this weapon is too simillar to PR so let's do it more damageful and low range (recently one guy pointed attention we have no ballistic weapon with splash) so we can find role and do bit more powerful weapon for jumpers from this:

dmg-24->30
range-90->55
fire rapid-1
accuracy-77%
chain hit chance-40%->44%
max hits targets (as one shot) (if it's really needed)-4
mass->weight-19
cells use-22

wow, bit big changes... nice :D
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Enneagon

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 08:52:03 AM »

Well, that's mush closer to that only weapon we are missing ;)

I think, range 55 may really be it, but the special chain hit chance may be 50% ~ 66% or nominal damage increased up to 3 times to get this where I see blank space for additional weapon.

YES, what I'm talking about something that is rather bit OP than mediocre.
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Enneagon

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2014, 09:28:11 AM »

On a side note...
...in the statistical region we currently hitting with primary damage of this idea...

I think both AMG and Phantom Rifle could use a very small buff, +1 damage, -2 accuracy...

AMG: dmg = 19, acc = 70
PhR: dmg = 23, acc = 81

This may seem like hair splitting, but I believe the AMG change is indeed necessary to make AMG a viable alternative to Rg2 not only by size and availability (what may even be slightly worse for AMG actually, production option not count) but by somewhat different parameters instead.
Many people instinctively try to use AMG as more close range option, but with current balance that is bit foolish in my opinion - if you can mount a Rg2 there almost no reason to use AMG instead...
The suggested change don't offer much, but hopefully just enough difference to start noticing there indeed is...

The adjustment to Phantom rifle is only suggested to keep parity between both (I believe there must be), with corresponding accuracy decease (-3) to keep its current alignment with Rg2 (else it may become too much better than Rg2, further adding problems to already weak "top-tier" weapon)
This also helps to define PhR as better than EMP option in mid-range - its unique niche that is hard to spot and even harder to exploit in practice.
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Enneagon

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 11:26:59 AM »

Now, I will start with apology about attempt to hijack the tread.... ;)

But I want to offer my version of this missing ballistic weapon - and YES, I indeed believe we are one missing...

Gaus Gun
Damage = 225 (ballistic, no splash)
Range = 65
Firing speed = 1 (every turn)
Accuracy = 77
Weight = 85
Cells = 99

(think about huge depleted uranium rod accelerated in frictionless barrel... or something about that)


It is also intended as artifact weapon, perhaps very rare item... definitely not more commonplace than Power Claws or Deflector Canons.
And that will be the company I would want to compare it against, Power Claws and Deflector Cannon, those comparison partners remain relevant in use cases to, not only by availability and not ordinarily items like Rg2/AMG and Assault Rifle...

So it may indeed seem rather OP on the very first glimpse, but doubt it is.
But definitely, just like Power Claws, yet another bold incursion in pure energy territory :)


~ ~ ~

If you truing to combine Assault Rifle with Rg2 against EMP alone you will fail already...
Comparison in terms of Expected Damage per Turn per Unit of Weight (eDmg/T/W) of AR, Rg2 and EMP
0: AR=2.50 EMP=2.50 Rg2=1.33
40: EMP=2.04 AR=1.29 Rg2=1.27
90: Rg2=1.16 EMP=1.13
100: Rg2=1.13 EMP=0.94
105: EMP=0.85

On paper you will get very slight advantage at both extremes, but get a huge dent in the short ranges... And wait, that only if if you directly compare AR vs EMP and Rg2 vs EMP directly,  any real combination will inevitably be weaker. 

The current Pulse Gun sketch in my opinion tries at best partially fill that short ranges dent...
(a imaginary gun H with Range=55 Dmg=40 and acc=90 would meet EMP line at its max range as 55: H=1.79 EMP=1.77)

But EMP even isn't the best energy option in short range, there are also PGL, PFT, TG, DC of with only PGL is roughly comparable with AR (if not already better due to splash... why AR don't have splash? hmm...) what is best and only dedicated close range option for ballistics... except the Power Claw.

Power Claw?
Best close range gun by huge margin...
It artifact weapon that can't ever be made, and even those who hold the artifacts rarely (if ever at all) fully exploit that capability, because of extreme cost and production time that seems irrelevant to do. And it is, and remains, a singularity, an out-of-order thing...

So, Power Claw now only see some limited use in niche applications and specific edge case solutions, but It still loses to PFT in generalized case, because there is no options to support it.

For a multi-row jumper force (or, pairs of units in the same row, intended to hit the same target in the center) there is (more or less) acceptable options for 3rd or 4th row / pair (AMG and Rg2 don't looks too bad here), but not really the second... AR is already too short - it obviously not intended for use at its max range, mortar is just single shot option (most probably either the enemy or jumpers will be dead before it reloads), AMG is just to weak to be relevant.

This is the exact role I'm aiming this for.
(There is that one portal setting where TG are used to cover PC front line - a perfect use case for this ;) ....wasn't you feel it missing when design that?)

Of course, it makes tremendous anti-jumper weapon too... But should not be worse than DC/EMP.

Edit: reduced weight to 85 to remain for it be possible to be use on jumper puma... (of course reduced damage too to keep ratings right)

 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:01:02 PM by Enneagon »
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adamsky

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 04:15:54 PM »

Hi. Sorry for the delay, I just got back from short vacation. :)


Main problem with new chain damage will be a limited availability of our main programmer. The idea is good, but I simply don't know when will we be able to introduce it. Esspecially that we desperately need to improve layout in a first place.

As for exact parameters, first we have to determine what type of weapon this game needs.

For example: one of the problems with AMG is that it's between RG1 and RG2. In early game, when you run with Pumas and first STs, you use RG1. Later, if you need ballistic mid range weapons, you switch to RG2. I'm keeping AMG accuracy rather low to make it a good replacement for RG2 as anti-JP weapon, but still it isn't very popular (although some players do use it and it's working fine). AMG firepower is ok - I can sometimes see effective AMG armies in tournament - but it's to close to RG1 and RG2 to be widely used in the game.

To add any new weapon (no matter if it's unique or a regular one) we have to make sure that it will be usefull and won't eliminate few other weapons from the game.

I also don't want a full symetry between ballistic and energy weapons. The general concept is:
Ballistic: good mid range weapons, wider selection of long range weapons, most of the missiles
Energy: good short range weapons, wider selection of "special" weapons (EMP, splash weapons, etc.)


With range ~55 it would be more or less a ballistic equivalent of Tesla. By lowering accuracy to 50% ~ 66% we make it more deadly with "stick" than Tesla. It may be interesting, but if we keep it ballistic, it shouldn't be overpowered.
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Dobq

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Re: New Artifact Idea xD
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 09:44:36 AM »

It's all true, I guess it will be uself to destroying escaping mechs, or snipers on low health, worth noting if it's bouncing it can hit target from 220 (!) range (4*55), if the bullet would bounce to the most damaged units are clearly snipers would very very hard to escape, we all know snipers are OP, and it can solve this problem.

About Gaus Gun it's look pretty nice, I like it beacuse we have bit small of huge equipment, and it is this missing weapon.

I can't say more there, I agree with you adamsky and Ennea :)
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