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Author Topic: Battle "freezes" undone  (Read 5269 times)

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Hulk

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Battle "freezes" undone
« on: February 21, 2014, 11:18:29 PM »

I have no idea whether this is a bug or not. Anyway, my assumption was that the final point of the each battle is when all units of one of participants either killed or exited. It's already 2nd time when I observe a situation when a battle "freezes' in the middle of the action.
Example 1:



the battle stopped at the round 15,670, as you can see some defender's units are still alive and some mechs didn't even had a chance to take part in a fire exchange and stays marked with ? mark.



Example 2:





now the battle stopped on the round  49,920 and about 75% of units are out of action.
Just want to say i find this a pretty good game to play but bugs like this one totally spoils and ruins the fun of an action.
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2014, 12:56:25 AM »

It is not a bug.

And I know exactly how it works and how to use it.

I would tell, but maybe should wait till server ends? ;)
(btw, it is extremely easy to catch, just look at numbers)

wait...
the battle stopped at the round 15,670
really 15,670 and not 15,760 ?
If so, I maybe don't know something.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 01:13:54 AM by Enneagon »
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Hulk

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2014, 03:02:14 AM »

15,760, my bad
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2014, 06:11:17 AM »

Well, exercise in the simulator:

put one nova, armed with single Assault rifle and orders to keep position in defense,
attack it with single raptor, armed with single Light Machine Gun, orders: keep max range.

The battle will end before either die (nova never fire on raptor - out of range, raptor fails to kill nova in time - lack of firepower).

Now look at numbers of rounds this fight time-outed (160), and, numbers of rounds the big battles lasted, against total number of units on board.



Game gives 80 rounds per mech.
A round is used to act one mech, one time. Died or exited mechs don't need to be acted.
So the battle lasts at minimum 80 turns (with "turn" I mean, every unit is acted once), and may last longer if enough units die or exit the field.

For example, your first attack on NW Tower not time-outed because the swarm of jump spiders that died very quickly added rounds to the pool, but used few.
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Hulk

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2014, 08:03:22 AM »

So, you're saying that any real big number attack going to end like that?
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2014, 11:10:20 AM »

Essentially, yes

Depends on composition of army, guns and tactics, battle luck and many subtle factors that can add up in unexpected ways sometimes, but, battles as small as 60 vs 60 novas may timeout easily.

We may discuss the current value of the limiter, but it is clearly necessary from technical point of view. It stupidly simple to create battle that never ends naturally. (In my above sim example, swap weapons but order the raptor to stay out of enemies weapon range... Both will never fire)



The question is what "big" is.
What I now say may sound stupid, and I should disclaimer that I'm not connected to game in any other way than playing and learning it for just a year and a half...

But anything above someting like 45 novas is, in fact, outside the games design scope. The intended weapon balance start to bend and break as soon as first line of novas get full...

I saw it as extremely unfair when I first discovered that you can never really lose if attack with 100 nova army, it will be either excessive victory or timeout... Against total loss of army of up to 50 novas, if you hit good defense. But in sizes we discuss now, it bends over one more time, and 300 nova army becomes almost useless...
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Hulk

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2014, 05:27:31 PM »

Well, as soon as I didn't find any mention about the mech moves limit in the guide I assume you found this number empirically. And since it seems to be pre-designed it's not a bug but a flaw which even worse. This flaw severely limits the ability of an individual player, no matter how advanced he/she is, to fight against a league of players.
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Hulk

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2014, 07:47:13 PM »

Quote
Well, exercise in the simulator:

put one nova, armed with single Assault rifle and orders to keep position in defense,
attack it with single raptor, armed with single Light Machine Gun, orders: keep max range.

The battle will end before either die (nova never fire on raptor - out of range, raptor fails to kill nova in time - lack of firepower).

Now look at numbers of rounds this fight time-outed (160), and, numbers of rounds the big battles lasted, against total number of units on board.

hmmm, well it's 256 not 160, so it's probably not 80 moves per mech.



Anyway now I know how to make the raptor to kill the nova ;)
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aka TROLOLO, aka ursa major, aka duke nukem, aka KarlssonPåTaket

Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 09:15:54 PM »

Well, as soon as I didn't find any mention about the mech moves limit in the guide I assume you found this number empirically. And since it seems to be pre-designed it's not a bug but a flaw which even worse. This flaw severely limits the ability of an individual player, no matter how advanced he/she is, to fight against a league of players.

Yes, like many other little indy games (this is essentially a free-time project of 2-4 men), it is badly documented.
Most of the knowledge about game is empirical research or oral heritage between the players, often full of superstition and misbeliefs.

And yes, this is essentially a team game. One player, no matter how big and great, indeed can only be nuisance against a good team.

(Btw, to "win" this, you have to build 20 Spaceship Construction Yards, only one per city can be build, so you need at least two players for the task; 20 cities for one player is believed to be practical impossibility, not to mention extremely wasteful... and, of course, you need to defend them against AB weapons. I mean, it is team game by design, not just by emergence.)
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2014, 09:42:19 PM »

Quote
Well, exercise in the simulator:

put one nova, armed with single Assault rifle and orders to keep position in defense,
attack it with single raptor, armed with single Light Machine Gun, orders: keep max range.

The battle will end before either die (nova never fire on raptor - out of range, raptor fails to kill nova in time - lack of firepower).

Now look at numbers of rounds this fight time-outed (160), and, numbers of rounds the big battles lasted, against total number of units on board.

hmmm, well it's 256 not 160, so it's probably not 80 moves per mech.

Anyway now I know how to make the raptor to kill the nova ;)

Hmm... I'm petty sure I did the exact test (for the n-th time), maybe bit more than month back on this very server. I will redo it as soon I get back to computer (tomorrow).

Anyway, the 80 rounds per mech holds true for big battles we discuss. The 624 unit battle (including 3 towers) stopped 80 short from 50k rounds, and I was able to correct you on the first example... yes, buy counting units on the battlefield.

So either they changed the value very recently, or there something else.

(btw, I believe this parameter value was larger sometime in the past, maybe 2 years back (not sure about first server I played), and was decreased... yes, most probably to intentionally screw too big armies.)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 09:52:30 PM by Enneagon »
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adamsky

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2014, 07:06:33 PM »

No, it's not a bug.

Last update increased max length from *80 to *128, but the limit is still there.

From the very beggining game was designed as a game for teams. In most cases battle freezes when alliance-sponsored armies have an epic fight.
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2014, 09:35:43 PM »

In most cases battle freezes when alliance-sponsored armies have an epic fight.

On the s1 we are used to 60 ~ 100 nova armies as nearly standard war-fighting regiment, with 10+ cities running constant x10 %100 transform that can be sustained endlessly, even without help from market or hard work on NPC. So we indeed were forced to include that timeout 'feature' in our strategic tinkering. And it starting to become ridiculous, as including long range missile in the first row when you want it, or taking Puma jumpers with huge nova army to give more rounds.

The above 339 nova mass was made by single player (only possibly using one other big account to help a little, as it (likely) quit after we killed most of his army).
 
I lost count how much novas TROLOLO (Hulk) and pelevin lost in that first round of this war, but I believe they had ~200 each at start of hostilities. They lost most, and this superarmy was, mostly, build almost fully (I believe) anew after, in short time (10~12 days).
And they was an alliance of 3 players, and third member lost 80+ novas yesterday, just hours after the TROLOLO superarmy vanished (in return from next attack, as its holding city was AB'ed out of existence).

Don't misunderstand this as rant, we are completely comfortable with the army sizes... just saying what the real scope of battles is.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 10:12:12 PM by Enneagon »
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Hulk

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 02:06:49 AM »

Quote
...So we indeed were forced to include that timeout 'feature' in our strategic tinkering. And it starting to become ridiculous, as including long range missile in the first row when you want it, or taking Puma jumpers with huge nova army to give more rounds...

I found another way to prevent battles from freezing. I will introduce it to you when we meet next time (maybe on the other server) :)

Quote
...The above 339 nova mass was made by single player (only possibly using one other big account to help a little, as it (likely) quit after we killed most of his army).

Yes, I had about 14-15 nova-s left when Phoenix had fallen. I was able to produce 36 nova a day, so it wasn't so hard to reproduce and build the army even bigger than i had before. And yes, i was helped, not only at that particular time span. From the very beginning I was strongly supported by pelevin, who was far ahead in everything including res supply. And yes he spared me some useful stuff (KP mostly). Also my second attack was possible only because of his help, cause it (I mean the attack) hasn't been supposed to happen. I expected my army to die in the very first attack, so imagine my disappointment when they survived 2 of them. Therefore it was kind of relief when you destroyed their hometown on the way back. Of course, that wasn't a fate i wanted to them, they were supposed to die in a "perfect' battle which never happened.

 
Quote
I lost count how much novas TROLOLO (Hulk) and pelevin lost in that first round of this war, but I believe they had ~200 each at start of hostilities. They lost most, and this superarmy was, mostly, build almost fully (I believe) anew after, in short time (10~12 days).
And they was an alliance of 3 players, and third member lost 80+ novas yesterday, just hours after the TROLOLO superarmy vanished (in return from next attack, as its holding city was AB'ed out of existence).

Don't misunderstand this as rant, we are completely comfortable with the army sizes... just saying what the real scope of battles is.

Well, do the math and count it and be fair. Most of my losses were caused when you destroyed my mech's hometowns.
For instance:
1. Battle for TRO
Jinxme lost about 18 nova, Trololo lost ST-s only, (I don't remember how many, maybe 40) + 11 nova lost when TRO was destroyed
2. Battle for Phoenix
RC lost 297 nova
7 Nation lost 195 nova 17 ST (actually last 40 nova lost when Phoenix had fallen, it was a suicide to put them against gogu, but i preferred them to die in the battle than trying to escape )
3. Two raids against 9..
RC lost 113 nova, 7 Nation lost 75 nova in the immediate battles, about 260 on the way home.
4. I haven't kept a record of my attack against NW tower, but I'm pretty much sure you, guys lost more either.
Now, admit, it's extremely hard for a league of 3 to resist to the alliance of 28. But we did, and did it pretty well and if i were you, i would be rather ashamed of such a 'victory" than bragging about it.
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Enneagon

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 05:25:01 AM »

Now, admit, it's extremely hard for a league of 3 to resist to the alliance of 28. But we did, and did it pretty well and if i were you, i would be rather ashamed of such a 'victory" than bragging about it.
Well, if we come to exact numbers then 26 is the max allowed alliance size on this server, but not the point.

And yes, I admit that, and not really bragging with this victory, I would rather like to win a war against two other alliances of 26 not against two players, but well, that was what we get. And yes, we lost many battles. I not expected army of that size at NW Tower (I was in charge of organizing that defense, the attack come in bad time for 953228) and yes, I lost it. I lost all my novas as well, I put them in the right spot ;)
We were repeatedly underestimated you back then. Many of your loses were avoidable with better planning and coordination, especially against Phoenix, it was a chaos, if we not count it dead too soon and stick with initial plan we had, the last day of Phoenix would be much shorter. But part of our strategy was the obvious fact that we as a group can produce novas faster than you, no matter how fast you can, so we don't mind loses, and it in no way surprises me we lost more, we did.

I expected my army to die in the very first attack, so imagine my disappointment when they survived 2 of them. Therefore it was kind of relief when you destroyed their hometown on the way back. Of course, that wasn't a fate i wanted to them, they were supposed to die in a "perfect' battle which never happened.
There is a known tactic to not counter too big army at all (even let it to destroy cities) and just wait till it starves. Really big armies rarely die in "perfect" battle, starvation or home town destruction is almost usual end for them.
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keeprai

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Re: Battle "freezes" undone
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 01:02:38 PM »

Artifacts are stored in Artifact sanctuary building. One Artifact sanctuary can store only one artifact. If player wish to acquire second artifact for the same city, he has to remove previous artifact from the city or accept that new artifact will be deleted as soon as army reaches it's home city.